Maybe I just totally missed the bus but im pretty sure that a guy by the name of ken caminiti played for the astros.

Also, how the Astros are treating Bagwell can hardly be called "good"

Let's be fair to the Astros re: Bagwell - Bagwell's performance at Spring Training has made it quite clear that he's not able to play. His bat hasn't been on (9 K's in 30 abs, 0 HR, 1 2B), and he hasn't attempted a SINGLE overhand throw. To top it all off, he had to exit yet another game early because of pain in his shoulder.

I'm a lifelong Astros fan and I've loved watching Bags and Biggio, but it's apparent that Bagwell is done (and has been for a couple years now). I don't think we can fault the Astros for filing an insurance claim. The most Bags can do right now is pinch-hit - and not even all that well. We certainly don't need a below-average pinch-hitter who costs $17 million dollars.

I'm glad he was able to come to camp and see if he was able to play, but it's apparent that he can't. I want him to retire on his own terms because he certainly deserves it, but I also want him to be honest with himself, the team, and Astros fans. Bagwell's done so much for the Astros over the years, but what he needs to do now is walk away (and start that HoF clock!).

I've always thought of the Astros as a "good" organization full of upstanding guys, but I'm not sure I buy the author's premise that organizational values trickle down to the players when it comes to steroids. In other words, I have a difficult time envisioning a scenario where a player was going to use steroids but didn't b/c of his owners. I could be wrong (after all, the Astros are the same organization that cut loose Julio Lugo for character reasons), but I have trouble seeing it.

I think remmy made a good point too -- most organizations are full of good and bad guys, regardless of who's running the ship. Is Roger Clemens a good guy? Or Jeff Kent? Or Moises Alou (who had a license plate extolling himself as the 1997 WS MVP over his teammate)? They all played for the Astros. Likewise Mike Matheny, Kirk Rueter, and Ray Durham -- reputed good guys -- all played for the Giants over the last couple years.

I don't know if any of those guys are as "good" or as "bad" as their rep, and that may be my point. It's hard to tell who's good or bad from the outside, and perhaps just as hard for the boss have much leeway over it one way or the other.

I think the nickname for some of the mid to late 90's was the AstROIDS. I think the front office is classy and they normally show bad guys the door. Lugo, C Everett, etc...

i agree with david -

we know the astros players didn't do roids HOW?

the "root for the good guys" was last year's slogan put out by the team PR department.

according to like every astros player AND larry dierker, carl everett was a good player, made NO trouble and was very well liked.

moises alou was the guy who injured hisself "walking on a treadmill"

uh hunh

jeff kent is NOT "a good guy" - he's a guy who screams at rookies and makes them nervous, won't talk to his teammates in the locker room and lies to his old team about how he injured himself

fact is we got NO idea who is "good"

yeah the PR department always releasing stories about how "christian" morgan ensberg is - he won't go out or drink and he's in bed by 10 PM. or something.

and all the righteousness about how the team dumped lugo for beating up his wife - well, this is the guy whose errors lost the NLDS and wasn't exactly no a-rod. you think they would have tossed him if he was tejada. or if adam everett wasn't ready????

and please remember that the VERY next year, they signed wife beater bobby chouinard.

yeah, the "good guys."

what a steaming load.

these are guys who been top athletes they whole life, adored, had excuses made for them when they "naughty" and on and on.

we know about them what the PR dept and the media tells us. and that's about it.

Go Lisa! :)

The idea of a rebuttal to Ms. Gray's invective in this space may seem to be lacking in a little grace. After all, I as the author should be willing to accept the verdict of the readers. And that verdict may seem to be that I'm a little naive.

Yet when my work is characterized as "a steaming load" in something of a grammarless tirade against me, I hope that I can be forgiven for being unable to stifle the urge to reply. And when my basic thrust--simply that an organization can choose to create an environment conducive to cheating, or they can choose NOT to-- is distorted past recognition, I hope again that others can let me slide a bit as I respond.

My overall response to Ms. Gray's tantrum is that there must be something in the iconography of the "big bad baseball player" that resonates within her. Why else would she bo so willing to assume evil when given what amounts to a blank slate?

Fifty years ago, when beat reporter so obivoulsy had their bread buttered by the teams and the players they covered, I would have accepted the idea that we have no way of knowing what a player does. But these days, with the the media, web-based and otherwise, having, um, matured, in the lengths they are willing to go to bring a bankable story to the table, I have no problems believing tht if it's going on, I'll be hearing about sooner or later, most likely sooner.

Obviously nothing is certain in this world, but THAT's how we know that there's been no great steroids conspiracy in the Astros locker room: because no-one who could make money telling us went ahead and did so, Don't overestimate the power of the Astros' media department. Sheesh, the way you write, you'd think they were the propaganda machine in the old Soviet Union. . . .

You also purposely confuse what I mean by "good." I certainly don't give a rat's ass if "Jeff Kent yelled at rookies" or whatever. Gee, do you think that will keep him out of the Hall? I know people have speculated that Moises Alou may not have hurt "hisself" if I got your schtick right, on a treadmill, but so what? That's contract shit, I don't care about that. When I say good, I mean respect the freaking game, respect the fans, and stay off the police blotter. Anything else, as a fan, has nothing to with me. Show some character is what I'm asking for.

And in the case of Julio Lugo--although I had wondered at the time whether the shortstop might have been railroaded-- I fail to see how that case DISPROVES my point.

The deep-seated belief that seems to be expressed here, that a baseball player by his very nature and by the very way we bring them up in our society is incapable of being a moral man betrays more I think about your own character than anything about a player's. Or an organization's.