I think we should find out in how many plate appearances he was facing a pitcher who was on steroids. Then we can get eraser happy.

As if Schiling's comments yesterday weren't enough. They should both stay away from microphones and stick to what's left of their pitching.

Neither Wells nor Schilling has ever been able to pass up an opportunity to mouth off and/or pass judgement. It's just who they are: a couple of blowhard jackasses who happen to have had very good, if not great, baseball careers.

They could remove his record the way they do in USFA tournaments. The record book would then replace his name with "Player Banned for Steroid Use" where ever
it wouild appear on ranking list. That way the stats stay, but Raffy is "shunned" by society.

Example

HR List
8. Harmon Killebrew+ 573 R
9. Reggie Jackson+* 563 L
10. Player Banned/Steroids 551 L
11. Mike Schmidt+ 548 R
12. Mickey Mantle+# 536 B

Why not take that to its logical conclusion:

8. Harmon Killebrew+ 573 R
9. Ego+* 563 L
10. Player Banned/Steroids 551 L
11. Mike Schmidt+ 548 R
12. Drunk+# 536 B

Also, a lie detector test?!? Why not a Ouija board? Maybe a palm reading.

With computers these days...they could even calculate which team would've won what games without Raffy being part of the mix all these years and then "correct" the standings to reflect the non-steroid user...and all that jazz.

And wasn't there a pitcher in the '70's who tossed a no-hitter while he was on acid? Perhaps that wasn't fair to him that the batters he faced were straight laced (as far as we know). Hmmmm.

I agree Raffy should at least be banned from any HOF election process. It's one thing to have a guy trying to scuff the ball up, but a totally different thing to have a guy juiced. Being on steroids is worse than even throwing the World Series! How come a guy like Joe Jackson can be banned for cheating once (even when that's debatable cheating), when a guy on Steroids can't be??? That's the question I want answered. That's not fair.

Devon,
that was Doc Ellis, IIRC. It was a Doc something or other. Oh and speaking of Docs, how about we throw out Doc Gooden's records. I'm sure there was a game or two when he and Straw were coked up to play? Sorry Mets' fan, you didn't really win the WS in '86.

To me, a steroid user is at least trying to help his team win a game (by putting up good numbers for himself).
The 1919 White Sox purposely lost games. The key idea in sports is to win, not to lose. Thus what they all did was the worst sin.

Sounds like David's been dipping into the bong water again.

Most of those Black Sox were guilty as sin, but Jackson? He was the best offensive player in the series and Comiskey's behavior toward him (and regarding the whole scandal) is very suspicious. Plus, Jackson couldn't even read or write. So if even Shoeless (Senseless) Joe isn't considered a dupe by baseball, how can someone like Raffy get away with it?

I'm for reinstating Jackson, by the way, if not any of the rest (who weren't HOFers anyway).

I don't understand what banning Palmiero (or whomever) is supposed to accomplish. Is it punishing Palmiero? No, he's still got his millions of dollars. Really, it just punishes fans, by hiding or removing data, telling us that something didn't happen when it really did. Kind of Orwellian, when you think about it.

Also, gambling HAS to be considered a greater sin than cheating. Competition is the key selling point in all sports. If guys are intentionally losing, then you have pro wrestling -- which I love, but not as a sport.

whoa whoa whoa. how are you considering joe jackson's guilt in doubt? I literally just finished reading 8 Men Out today. jackson clearly conspired to lose the 1919 world series.

jackson called Judge MacDonald to confess to a Grand Jury, completely under his own power. "it was easy; all he had to do was go along with it; let a ball drop a few feet in front of him; don't hit the big one with men on. he could look good and still play badly. twenty thousand dollars."

he only got 5k, and later went to the players in charge of the fix and told them he's talk if he didn't get the rest.

from p178 of the book: "He told the Jury how he hadn't played good baseball, despite his incredible .375 World Series average, and record 12 base hits."

no one forced him to go talk to the grand jury, he wasn't indicted. jackson was 100% guilty of conspiracy to throw the world series and must be kept out of the HOF.

eddie cicotte had a 2.91 ERA in 3 starts in that world series. nobody's trying to get him into the Hall, partially because he also clearly was in on the fix.

plus, joe jackson only played ten full seasons...he didn't have the longevity needed for the Hall and that's because he was greedy and corrupt. his stupidity is no excuse!

As I posted in the Schilling thread, as soon as Wells comes clean about all of the times he "accidently" scuffed or cut the baseball, or "inadvertently" sweat all over it, I'll be happy to listen to him rant. The odds that a control-freak pitcher in his late 30's like Wells doctored the ball at one time or another approach 100%. Why is that form of cheating OK, but steroids beyond the pall?

Erasing records is a Stalinist stupidity that I sincerely hope will never be seriously considered. If you want to discount those records in a historical context, you're free to do so, but please don't tell me that those hits never happened, or that they didn't help to win games.

You should probably read a better book about the White Sox scandal. Comiskey sent his lawyer to tell Jackson to confess. The entire thing is very suspect and the book "Say it Ain't So Joe" pretty much point by point proves that Jackson was innocent. There is so much evidence that is stacked against Comiskey and for Jackson that it is unreal that myths and outright lies persist to this day. The wikipedia entry on Joe Jackson has been updated lately with some of the evidence. Look it him up at www.wikipedia.org for a little perspective.

rbj, maybe we should added the 88 WS title to the Mets' mantle. Drugs and alcohol hurt athletic performance, while steroids enhance. That much is fact. Taking 3 names from the comments section, Mickey might have been the best who ever played the game, Doc and Straw would be certain HOF members. That is, if they did not abuse drugs and booze. And if they juiced like the crowd that got called to congress.... Fugetaboutit!!!

That said, Wells is an ass. And the records are what they are. No erasers required, history will judge. After Wells' sexual assault commentary regarding the K. Rogers, I'm unable to take anything he says seriously. Rocco Graziosa has far more creditability.

Duly noted, I will check out Say It Ain't So and the Wikipedia entry. Initial reaction is that these sources seem likely to be biased as compared to Asinof's account. He did not have any Save Joe agenda.

update - just read the wikipedia entry and whatever you believe about Joe, it's a dreadful source. It doesn't link to any credible source or book and it's not even written well. Example:

"He was adviced by the lawyer of Charles Comiskey during this entire time and was encouraged to admit to the fix in a clear conflict of interest."

Where did this anonymous author get that? It was in Comiskey's best interest to get Jackson off the charges...the last thing he wanted was for Jackson to talk. Seriously, reread Eight Men Out.