Baseball Musings: He'd Rather Fight <em>and</em> Switch

August 22, 2006

He'd Rather Fight and Switch

John Gibbons and Ted Lilly appeared to fight last night.

The Toronto Blue Jays coughed up all of an early 8-0 lead last night but they didn't go down without a fight.
Unfortunately, the fight -- or near-fight, or scuffle, or whatever the Jays want to call it -- involved manager John Gibbons and his evening's short-lived starter, left-hander Ted Lilly.

And this one -- unlike the untaken challenge to fight that Gibbons had issued the soon-gone Shea Hillenbrand four weeks back -- at least had a little meat on it. Again, though, apparently no punches were thrown.

"Nobody got hit," said Gibbons, some 20 minutes after the Jays had tumbled 12-10 to the Oakland A's. "We've talked it out (meaning he and Lilly) and everything's good. He's a competitor, I'm a competitor. It's over and we move on."

Lilly agreed that no punches were thrown:

"It was verbal," said Lilly. "I'm certainly glad and I think he's glad it wasn't physical but we were on the verge of something regrettable happening. We were yelling at each other face to face.
"It's an embarrassing situation," Lilly said calmly. "I said something to him I shouldn't have said and it kind of got out of control. I was already upset enough and didn't handle it very well. I handled it in a way that I think I'll regret."

Did that mean he thought there could be some discipline headed his way? When Hillenbrand allegedly wrote the "ship was sinking" on a clubhouse bulletin board, he was designated for assignment during the game and shipped off to the San Francisco Giants two days later.

"Hopefully not," said Lilly. "I guess I'll find out."

Shea Hillenbrand got to spin this event to his benefit:

"Ted Lilly's a great guy. Ted Lilly's an intense competitor," Hillenbrand said. "He was a great teammate when I was over there. So I'm surprised that confrontation happened with Ted Lilly."
He added: "Stuff like that's been going on all season over there. I had my issues with the manager. ... They say I'm the cancer of the team and things are still happening, so I don't know how you can make that assumption or that statement. Things like that begin to come out when times get tough."

Unlike Hillenbrand, Lilly seems to be well liked. You've never heard anything negative about his personality:

Oakland's Eric Chavez, who played with Lilly in Oakland, was surprised.
"It's a little strange to seen that happen," he said. "I liked Ted. He was a good teammate when he was here."

Gibbons appears to be an old style confrontation manager. That type of style worked over the history of baseball, although most modern ones don't fight their players. Felipe Alou and Jim Leyland fit this mold, but they limit their physical intimidation to the other team. Gibbons seems to be more like Billy Martin and Lou Piniella, although I only remember Lou getting in one fight with a player.

I hear Davey Johnson is interested in managing again. All he ever did was win.

Posted by David Pinto at 07:57 AM | Management | TrackBack (0)

Comments

Are these in-story links a permanent change? Apologies if I missed an explanation about them, but I'm curious as I'm not a fan (of the links).

Thanks.

Posted by: JC at August 22, 2006 08:50 AM

One thing... Ted and the pitching coach Brad Arnsberg are not talking... they haven't been for about a season and a half. Ted blowing up and alienating staff is nothing new... And Shea was going to be the first person interviewed anyway... his biased opinion is right where I thought it would be too...

Whoever get's Ted next year gets a guy with some serious head issues... It may not seem like it but he is about as high maintenence as it gets.

Posted by: Andrew at August 22, 2006 09:13 AM

"Nobody got hit," said Gibbons, some 20 minutes after the Jays had tumbled 12-10 to the Oakland A's. "We've talked it out (meaning he and Lilly) and everything's good. He's a competitor, I'm a competitor. It's over and we move on."

Lilly agreed that no punches were thrown:

"It was verbal," said Lilly. "I'm certainly glad and I think he's glad it wasn't physical but we were on the verge of something regrettable happening. We were yelling at each other face to face.

So, uh, how did Gibbons get a bloody nose?

Posted by: calig23 at August 22, 2006 09:18 AM

The likely explanation for Gibbons bloody nose is some kind of contact. However, I'm prone to bloody noses, and they happen for no appearent reason. Maybe Gibbons stress level was so high he just burst a blood vessel.

Posted by: David Pinto at August 22, 2006 09:31 AM

Lilly can do that to a manger... I bet they scuffled a bit and JP and Godfrey explained to them what to say to the media.

And the bloody nose report is suspect. The Oakland broadcast showed a trainer wiping down Gibbys face with a towel... I've been looking for a while now and I can't find a shot with blood...

Posted by: Andrew at August 22, 2006 10:21 AM

Was it Stengel who said the secret to managing was to keep the guys who hate you away from the guys who haven't made up their minds yet?

Contrast that with Joe Torre's style.

Posted by: rbj at August 22, 2006 10:30 AM

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/baseball/mlb/08/21/bc.bba.bluejays.lilly.g.ap/index.html?cnn=yes

When Lilly left the mound for the clubhouse. Gibbons followed him. A team trainer and a number of players then ran down the stairs. Cameramen near the dugout saw Gibbons push Lilly first.

Canadian Press photographer Aaron Harris, one of a handful of photographers to witness the skirmish, said Lilly was waiting for Gibbons in the tunnel leading to the clubhouse.

"Gibbons just went at him," Harris said. "It looked like Gibbons grabbed him and they disappeared. Then the whole dugout emptied back there. It was mayhem down in the tunnel."

A television camera later showed Gibbons and the trainer wipe the manager's nose with a towel.

Posted by: Frank at August 22, 2006 10:42 AM

Nice mention of Davey. Dead on as well. Running him out of town was the beginning of the dark days at Shea. I wonder what the knock on him is around the game.

Posted by: abe at August 22, 2006 11:16 AM

I wonder if Davey Johnson's a victim of his own success - by which I mean, if the manager always wins, then that means any problems are seen as belonging to the GM/players/owner/etc., which gives those guys one fewer scapegoat ("You can't argue with Davey, he's won everywhere else, so it's probably not his fault.").

Who'd want Superman as a teammate or employee? If you lost (in the absence of Kryptonite), you'd always know it was *your* fault.

Posted by: Chris at August 22, 2006 03:37 PM

I think that Ted Lilly now has more hits for the month of August than Shea Hillenbrand.

Posted by: Jeff B. at August 22, 2006 04:14 PM

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