Length of career is BS. Puckett got in on his first try with mediocre numbers. The writers are as spiteful and childish as Belle was, if not worse. If the guy deserves to be in, put him in.

I'm shocked at the pass the media has gotten for essentially black-balling a hall-of-fame caliber player because he was mean to the media. It's bad enough these same writers destroyed the integrity of the MVP with the Belle/Vaughn farce but this is a new level of sucktitude.

In lieu of voting for people who actually belong in the hall, we should simply call it the Hall of Media friendly. Professional heroes like Bob Uecker, Steve Lyons, and Rob Piccolo could all gain acceptance and mean nasty big-leaguers like Cobb, Williams, and Belle won't even be considered.

Character is one of the criteria for admission to the Hall. Kirby did at least project good character (though apparently it was a facade). Belle was a mean, nasty jerk. Not just to reporters but to fans as well, in a way that went beyond Ted Williams' ignoring fans.

When a player has a borderline HOF case like Belle's, he needs to have some bonus points to get in. Puckett was a gold glove center fielder who was the leader of two unlikely world champions. Belle on the other hand was a corked bat swinging cheater who was so important to his team that they won a pennant the year after he left.

If Belle had five more outstanding years, the writers would have voted him in on the first ballot. He didn't. He's not getting in hall of fame and doesn't deserve to be there. And he's a horse's ass.

i am a lifelong yankee fan and remember belle terrorizing our pitchers during his career. he certainly was hated by the media, fans and many teammates. i'm sure ty cobb was as well and he is in the hall. as much as i disliked belle, he has monster numbers and deserves to be enshrined.

Jon Black wrote, "I'm shocked at the pass the media has gotten for essentially black-balling a hall-of-fame caliber player because he was mean to the media."

That's marginally true at best. Yes, Ryan and Greenstein claim that Belle was mean to the media, but they also claim that he was mean to teammates, coaches, and fans -- a far more serious charge when it comes to HOF credentials. I agree with rbj here, that character can be useful when distinguishing among borderline candidates. Moreover, I respect what media insiders have to say on this point b/c it's one of the few areas where their thoughts and opinions carry more weight than the those of us ordinary fans. (That's not to say that everything reporters say is objective -- some could be acting out of pettiness or personal slight -- but still, they have access to a realm that, say, performance analysts generally do not.)

By the same token, there are some areas where our opinions are as legit as the reporters'. Take Teddy Greenstein's comment from the other day, where he said Belle "pile[d] up meaningless stats before sparse crowds." I highly doubt that's true, and I'd love it if someone could study the issue (i.e., with win expectancy stats or something like that).

The SOB does not deserve t be in.

#1 - cork
#2 - hitting that woman in the chest with the ball
#3 - breaking Fernando Vina's jaw when Vina went to tag him inbetween first and second
#4 - he was a poor teammate

I really don't think Albert Belle is a Hall of Famer, although he probably was better than a few who are in. I agree, though, that he shouldn't be kept out just because he's a jerk. If we took all the jerks out of the Hall of Fame, we could move it to a much smaller building.

You shouldn't judge the Hall by its most marginal cases. Should everybody better than Kirby Puckett be in the Hall just because Puckett's in there? I don't think so.

Kristofer's list is instructive. Numbers two and three are false, patently so. Number four, is a charge I have never heard leveled by any on Mr. Belle's teammates.

Let me just be clear, if you feel that character counts towards hall-of-fame enshrinement, that is fine (it does seem odd that only seems to count intermittently.) However, if it does count, it should be measured by persons other than the media. It does seem feasible, does it not, that someone might be a good guy and yet be perceived poorly by the media? Is the Hall-of-Fame really the Hall of guys who were good and tolerated the media?

With respect to the media's pettiness, I thought that was clearly demonstrated by the 95 MVP voting. Does anybody honestly dispute that?

comparing belle and cobb is rediculous. sure, belle put up some great numbers while he played, and since no one is exactly sure what role cork or steroids played in that, it's tough to hold it against him. they were both super-jerks, however, take a look at cobb's stats and the argument ends.

FOR ALL TIME/CAREER STATS: cobb is 1st in batting avg, 2nd in runs, 2nd in hits, 4th in doubles, 2nd in triples, 6th in rbi, 44th in walks while striking out only 349 times in 3035 games (5th all time for that stat), and 4th in stolen bases. plus, add in a triple crown, an MVP, and a spot on the all century team. remind me again why we are putting these two guys in the same sentence.....

Jon Black needs to research things before accusing others. I will admit I got the sex wrong on the fan, it was a man per the NY Times article below and it was Vina's NOSE he broke per the NY Times.

Peter Gammons on espn http://espn.go.com/classic/biography/s/Belle_Albert.html verifys both of my claims as well as adding to the list with : "At Louisiana State, Belle chased a heckling fan in the stands, was suspended and ended up missing the College World Series. In the minor leagues, he destroyed part of a bathroom after a tough night at bat. In the majors, he turned up the intensity. He struck a photographer and a fan with thrown balls in separate incidents, charged the mound to fight pitchers, verbally chastised NBC reporter Hannah Storm before a World Series game, chased egg-throwing teenagers from his house on Halloween and leveled Milwaukee infielder Fernando Vina with a forearm hit while running the bases."

The New York Times backs me up with this article : http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20611FE3D5D0C718DDDAC0894D9494D81&n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fPeople%2fB%2fBelle%2c%20Albert quoted here: "Indians outfielder Albert Belle threw a baseball at a heckler in the left-field stands at Cleveland Stadium today, hitting the man in the chest. The fan, Jeff Pillar, 33 years old, of Cleveland, told the umpiring crew he had been kidding Belle about throwing a keg party. "

and here's the articles on Vina: http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/albert_belle/?offset=50& and http://www.infoplease.com/ipsa/A0193833.html

the best quote is "tremendous hitter and stupendous troublemaker; in strike-shortened 1995 season, became first player in major league history to hit 50 homers and 50 doubles in a season; five-time All-Star; three-time AL RBI leader; was fined $50,000 for a profanity-laced tirade aimed at NBC's Hannah Storm during 1995 World Series; in 1996, was suspended for a brutal hit on Brewers' Fernando Vina; suspended 10 games in 1994 for using a corked bat."

you could have corrected me that it was a MAN he hit with a ball or that it was Vina's NOSE he broke, instead of whining that those comments were wrong...

Well I would have chased the egg throwing kids too. Eggs do not come off easily.

it was Rob Dibble who hit the woman with a thrown ball. It's been 10 years!! I'm lucky I remember Dibble or Belle even played baseball as short as their careers were!

Kristofer: You're being petty. 12 years isn't that short of a career. Remember Kirby Puckett? You know how many season he played? Yup. 12. How about recent Hall of Fame inductee? That's right. He too played just 12 seasons. Phil Rizzuto? He played 13.

Do I have to go on?

Rizzuto is not a good comparison, since he missed time for WWII and was also picked by the veterans committee.

Fair enough, David.

I left the words "Bruce Sutter" out of my comment. HIs was just a 12-year career too with an arguably shorter peak than Belle's.

If character is indeed a criteria, isn't there a bunch of unsavory people in the HOF? If so, there's an inconsistency which should be fixed. Either character is an issue or isn't. If character isn't an issue then Belle's personal infractions shouldn't matter (e.g. hitting fans with baseball, hannah storm, corked bats, yelling at reporters, etc.). Arguments over's Belle's candicacy should stay centered on his numbers which sadly I see less focus on in comparison to the character issue. If character does matter, I'm curious to know how you reconcile the fact that morally questionable people are in the HOF with the character clause? Is it that a player can be morally questionable and still enter the HOF if his numbers are outrageously superior to his peers? While players who are the borderline candidates get a boost because of their character? This raises another question. Do we really want baseball writers to evaluate character? Human beings are full of complexity and contradictions. Do really want baseball players to decide player A is a better human being than player B? Baseball writer's expertise lies in evaluating baseball. I'm inclined to believe that the HOF criteria should play to that strength by eliminating non-baseball related factors. As joe black said earlier, isn't conceiveable that a player is actually a "better" person than actually portrayed by the media.

Also, Adam mentioned, "Should everybody better than Kirby Puckett be in the Hall just because Puckett's in there? I don't think so."

I read that as an unintended slight to Puckett. If there are better players than Puckett, why is Puckett in the HOF? The comment seems to suggest that Puckett is watering down the HOF. Unless, of course, character matters which brings the debate back to full circle.

And I feel that Kirby Puckett's career was cut too short by his glaucoma. He was a joy to watch play the game.

My comment on Belle's career being short was tongue in cheek as well as a slight slam. It was a reference to how fast time flies. Can you believe it was over ten years ago that sportcenter was playing the forearm hit that Albert gave to Vina every 10 minutes for almost 3 days?

Yes, I know it was his hip that ended his career, but I did not like the man. He could have retired when the injury made it impossible to play, instead, he stayed on roster costing the Orioles to have to pay his salary until it was completely over. Tell me that Puckett, Mattingly, Sutter, or ANY of the others would have done that!! I thought he was an all around jerk.

Mister Albert "Don't Call Me Joey!!" Belle was as much a cheater to me as Sammy Sosa has become.
When you hit a ball with a bat for a living, don't tell me you can't tell when you are swinging a corked bat. Ever since that incident, where Cleaveland players pulled a "Mission Impossible" to get the bat back, I couldn't look at Belle w/o thinking about him cheating.

Gaylord Perry made cheating into a joke. Albert never got it that HE was the joke. All the talent in the world, all the heart of a tapeworm.

He could have retired when the injury made it impossible to play, instead, he stayed on roster costing the Orioles to have to pay his salary until it was completely over. Tell me that Puckett, Mattingly, Sutter, or ANY of the others would have done that!! I thought he was an all around jerk.

I'm not a big fan of this argument simply because the Orioles were able to get back most, if not all, of Belle's salary through insurance. (The numbers are sketchy on the exact figure. They range from 70 % of the $39 mil to all of it.) Meanwhile, are you going to tell me that you would honestly forego your salary and retire if the money comes to you at little cost to your employer? Hate him for being a complete jerk to fans, but can you blame him for not wanting to give up free money that wasn't hurting the team?

I'm not sure there's inconsistency about character. It's just not an all-or-nothing issue. My gut says that character should matter in HOF voting, just not that much. It's like a lot of secondary (or tertiary) skills. So, a great player who's a real jerk (paging Mr. Cobb) gets in, just like a great hitter who's not a good runner. But, for a borderline player, we pay attention to character as one of the many "intangibles" that get tossed around.

Bell seems to be a borderline case - clearly a fantastic hitter, but not for long enough so as to make him a lock. So, we look at other things, including character. Seems to make sense to me.

Rosenberg, thanks for that insigtful post.